Curse

Elrien Silentfoot · Nov 15, 2007, 08:49 PM // 20:49

The strongest criticism against this change has got nothing to do with the nerf effects of a particular build or playing style, it's that the players cease being able to understand and thus intelligently interact with the game-world.

lakatz · Nov 15, 2007, 08:57 PM // 20:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Epinephrine

...or you have an inability to imagine a set of magical rules that could account for the difference, in which case I suggest you get an imagination.

Where is the common ground in a MMORPG when there are up to approximately 1.5 million imagined sets of magical rules?

lyra_song · Nov 15, 2007, 09:06 PM // 21:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Epinephrine

I fail to see the problem with the nerf.

Some people say "leave the pets with exploitable corpses, fix necros instead".

Ok, so pets leave corpses, we fix all necro spells referring to corpses so that they read "non-animal corpses", we fix skills like IWAY to only count allied non-animal corpses and presto, what's the difference?

None. If it bugs you, pretend there's a corpse that you just can't exploit because of the lack of a soul or something. It's easier this way, and has the same effect as if you simply tweaked all the skills to read "non-animal corpse".

If it bugs you then you were using pet corpses, which they don't want, or you have an inability to imagine a set of magical rules that could account for the difference, in which case I suggest you get an imagination.

actually i was refering not to the nature of minion summoning but rather the energy return of minion summoning, ie: soul reaping.

A pet dies. all Necros gain energy
Two minions are raised with the investment of 15 energy by 1 necro.
Both minions die giving all necros energy.
Pet is ressed.
rinse.
repeat.

Since the pet has accumulated DP, it can be and be ressed at a much faster pace, providing long distance energy batteries for the necros (with minimal cost for the Ranger casting comfort animal thanks to expertise), as well as source for minions, which also provide energy batteries as well as damage.

Removing pets as corpses doesnt change the fact that the necros can still use minions as batteries (from other sources), as well as the death of the pet as batteries.

If we look at this situation, what is the cause and effect?

Its it the pet's fault or the necro's fault? Whos being exploited? Whos doing the exploiting?

Imo the function of a pet dying and getting turned into a minion should exist in the game. But not as an inexhaustible supply of energy. But as an interesting gameplay element and tactic.

holy masamune: You keep bringing up to the whole "build" thing. I pointed out my opinion on nerfs ont hat thread:

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...1&postcount=24

Nightmare Venom · Nov 15, 2007, 09:17 PM // 21:17

/signed

It seems a bit stupid that you can create minions from the corpses of your fallen teammates. The same for enemies, if they're fleshy you can use their corpse. Heck, even for untamed pets, you can still use their corpse. But as soon as a pet dies, you can't use it 's corpse to create a minion. Why? What makes the pet so special that it doesn't leave a corpse? By all rights, if it's dead, the corpse should be able to be used, because it is a fleshy creature

Sir Pandra Pierva · Nov 15, 2007, 09:56 PM // 21:56

maybey cause the pet is blessed with anti nec things?

Age · Nov 15, 2007, 10:15 PM // 22:15

Since you can't animate your pets what about your fellow party members.

ThisIsNi · Nov 16, 2007, 12:05 AM // 00:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

actually i was refering not to the nature of minion summoning but rather the energy return of minion summoning, ie: soul reaping.

A pet dies. all Necros gain energy
Two minions are raised with the investment of 15 energy by 1 necro.
Both minions die giving all necros energy.
Pet is ressed.
rinse.
repeat.

Since the pet has accumulated DP, it can be and be ressed at a much faster pace, providing long distance energy batteries for the necros (with minimal cost for the Ranger casting comfort animal thanks to expertise), as well as source for minions, which also provide energy batteries as well as damage.

Removing pets as corpses doesnt change the fact that the necros can still use minions as batteries (from other sources), as well as the death of the pet as batteries.

If we look at this situation, what is the cause and effect?

Its it the pet's fault or the necro's fault? Whos being exploited? Whos doing the exploiting?

Imo the function of a pet dying and getting turned into a minion should exist in the game. But not as an inexhaustible supply of energy. But as an interesting gameplay element and tactic.

holy masamune: You keep bringing up to the whole "build" thing. I pointed out my opinion on nerfs ont hat thread:

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...1&postcount=24

The problem here is that you falsley draw the conclusion that ANet wants to nerf the build to hell. CONSIDER that they may be trying to just eliminate ONE of the ways that they think the build is overpowered. ANet STILL wants necros to have energy, still wants them to use minions as batterys, but for some reason they want to remove this one source of corpses. The only reason you care is because you want to make a big scene about some imagined game play mechanics that YOU made up.

Faer · Nov 16, 2007, 12:30 AM // 00:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Removing pets as corpses doesnt change the fact that the necros can still use minions as batteries (from other sources), as well as the death of the pet as batteries.

So why is it such a problem in PvE? There are a few hundred enemies in a zone, and a good fifty or so (sorry, I never really cared to count) in each level of ToPK. That's more than enough corpses to fuel MMs, don't you think?

Additionally, "other sources", in PvP, are human players. Human players are not usually expendable, however, pets are. They can be resurrected on demand cheaply and quickly, without hurting the team's chance of success (burnt Resurrection Signets are key), thus creating a theoretically endless supply of energy to the Necromancers, whereas human players provide an incredibly small theoretical energy pool in comparison.

The change to pets was good for the game as a whole. It will serve (as well as other recent changes) to encourage players in PvP to move away from a very gimmicky build and to hopefully play something more balanced, and will do the exact same thing in PvE.

Thom Bangalter · Nov 16, 2007, 12:44 AM // 00:44

less putrid explosion has always been good for the game.

rohara · Nov 16, 2007, 12:44 AM // 00:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

What about the wards? Why not make wards NOT OVERLAP.

because wards weren't the problem, the necros and pets were. thumper teams pwned plenty of face without taking wards in their builds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

LoD is also a significant part of this build, hence its been nerfed.

lolwut? there is no lod on a thumper team - the necros do the healing. and nerfing lod only made that build more powerful.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

And the aoe hexes

"lyra_song is using Straw Man on AoE Hexes!"

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

How about the fact that ritualist secondaries are better at healing than ritualist primaries.

ONLY ON NECROMANCERS BECAUSE THEY HAD INFINITE ENERGY, hence the nerf.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Instead of examining all the pieces of this good synergetic (but boring) build, we get a nerf to one or two pieces of it, thinking thats gonna fix the problem. Bandaid nerf.

it has been fixed. it was properly nipped in the bud.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

My problem with it is that its a screwed up EXCEPTION to a existing rules of the game thats designed to patch up an inherent problem thats with NECROMANCERS and not Rangers.

1) All fleshy creatures bleed, they get diseased, they get set on fire, etc.
2) All fleshy creatures leave exploitable corpses.
3) Animals are fleshy creatures and therefore bleed, get diseased (see 1)
4) Animals are fleshy creatures and leave exploitable corpses (go kill the next lvl 5 wolf you run into)
5) Players pets are all animals

Now because of the PvP abuse, player pets (all animals) follow rule 1, but not rule 2.

So either: remove 3 and 4 to make it consistent or revert it, and fix the Necromancer instead. Or you can remove 5 and make player pets ethereal and exempt from rule 1 (fire/cripple/deep wound/blind is ok)

there's exceptions to many "rules" in this game. example...minions are composed of bone and dead flesh, but they can still bleed (where's their hearts???) and are considered "fleshy". however, when they die they leave no corpse at all, so you can't raise another minion from them (with the exception of a flesh golem corpse). why? because it would be terribad for balance. taking a pet is like having your own personal flesh golem without wasting an elite skill slot. free elite skill = bad for balance.

here's what they could have done:
A) make it so minion spells can't exploit pet corpses.
B) make it so pets leave exploited corpses.

what's the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing difference? same result.

lyra_song · Nov 16, 2007, 12:50 AM // 00:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThisIsNi

The problem here is that you falsley draw the conclusion that ANet wants to nerf the build to hell. CONSIDER that they may be trying to just eliminate ONE of the ways that they think the build is overpowered. ANet STILL wants necros to have energy, still wants them to use minions as batterys, but for some reason they want to remove this one source of corpses. The only reason you care is because you want to make a big scene about some imagined game play mechanics that YOU made up.

No, i didnt come to a false conclusion that Anet wants to nerf the build to hell. That has never been my conclusion.

My opinion is that Anet wants to nerf the build based simply on the merit that the PvPers want it nerfed, and I agree with them.

To what EXTENT Anet is willing to go to nerf the build, I do not know. It could be to its complete death, or to some semblance of minor viability. But I do know that nerfing corpses for pets is one way to do it.

And I still think it is the WRONG way to nerf the build, since it doesn't address the issue of how the pets got exploited to begin with.

And please dont tell me the reason I care. Feel free to disagree with me, but don't you dare tell me that I'm arguing based on false pretenses to up my post count or get attention. Because you would be very wrong.

Quote:

So why is it such a problem in PvE? There are a few hundred enemies in a zone, and a good fifty or so (sorry, I never really cared to count) in each level of ToPK. That's more than enough corpses to fuel MMs, don't you think?

It isn't a problem in PvE. Can everyone here read this? This isn't about B/P or ToPK.

My concern goes deeper than PvE or PvP. It goes to the core of the game. The engine and the mechanics of it.

Quote:

Additionally, "other sources", in PvP, are human players. Human players are not usually expendable, however, pets are. They can be resurrected on demand cheaply and quickly, without hurting the team's chance of success (burnt Resurrection Signets are key), thus creating a theoretically endless supply of energy to the Necromancers, whereas human players provide an incredibly small theoretical energy pool in comparison.

Yes....I know this. I've shown how the pets were being used.

And yes pets were better energy supply than human players. We have established that.

Removing their corpses doesn't remove their ability to used as batteries since they can still be killed (triggering Soul Reaping) and ressed without adverse affects.

It slows it down, but it doesn't stop the exploit, which as I've said before, centers around the Necromancer.

The SR nerf removing energy from spirits is a way better nerf than this (although i disagree with that too, but thats another thread).

Quote:

The change to pets was good for the game as a whole. It will serve (as well as other recent changes) to encourage players in PvP to move away from a very gimmicky build and to hopefully play something more balanced, and will do the exact same thing in PvE.

Or simply to move another gimmicky build that will then be nerfed later down the line.

This is the cycle of Guild Wars.

PvE effects are less relevant in balance.

Elrien Silentfoot · Nov 16, 2007, 12:50 AM // 00:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThisIsNi

The problem here is that you falsley draw the conclusion that ANet wants to nerf the build to hell. CONSIDER that they may be trying to just eliminate ONE of the ways that they think the build is overpowered. ANet STILL wants necros to have energy, still wants them to use minions as batterys, but for some reason they want to remove this one source of corpses. The only reason you care is because you want to make a big scene about some imagined game play mechanics that YOU made up.

Funny, this having flesh/not having flesh thing mattered enough to Anet to put in in-game messages to explain why poison and bleeding causing attacks didn't work as expected. But hey, if you want to give us all the kudos for inventing the core game mechanics, be my guest. In fact, maybe you can petition Anet to give us dev jobs, seeing as you think we and Anet think so similarly?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faer

So why is it such a problem in PvE? There are a few hundred enemies in a zone, and a good fifty or so (sorry, I never really cared to count) in each level of ToPK. That's more than enough corpses to fuel MMs, don't you think?

I didn't see anyone claim that PvE was the reason Anet implemented this change. And dying pets still give necros energy, so the question seems rather useless to me.

Quote:

Additionally, "other sources", in PvP, are human players. Human players are not usually expendable, however, pets are. They can be resurrected on demand cheaply and quickly, without hurting the team's chance of success (burnt Resurrection Signets are key), thus creating a theoretically endless supply of energy to the Necromancers, whereas human players provide an incredibly small theoretical energy pool in comparison.

So apparently that aspect of the infinite battery remains intact. I find it rather odd that people claim that this change was because of pvp, but that it doesn't even "fix" the problem most people claim it's supposed to be fixing.

creelie · Nov 16, 2007, 01:21 AM // 01:21

/signed

And if they're not going to revert it, they should make Charm Animal cost 5 energy, cast in 2 seconds, and double as a pet resurrection skill (without healing so Comfort still has a function).

It's a completely artificial and graceless nerf. I don't even USE pets and I'm disgusted by it.

lyra_song · Nov 16, 2007, 01:26 AM // 01:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by rohara

because wards weren't the problem, the necros and pets were. thumper teams pwned plenty of face without taking wards in their builds.

lolwut? there is no lod on a thumper team - the necros do the healing. and nerfing lod only made that build more powerful.

"lyra_song is using Straw Man on AoE Hexes!"

ONLY ON NECROMANCERS BECAUSE THEY HAD INFINITE ENERGY, hence the nerf.

it has been fixed. it was properly nipped in the bud.

I listed that based on one version of the build, specifically mentioned on this thread. Theres other versions and variations, but I will address the important point you mentioned.

Quote:

there's exceptions to many "rules" in this game. example...minions are composed of bone and dead flesh, but they can still bleed (where's their hearts???) and are considered "fleshy". however, when they die they leave no corpse at all, so you can't raise another minion from them (with the exception of a flesh golem corpse). why? because it would be terribad for balance. taking a pet is like having your own personal flesh golem without wasting an elite skill slot. free elite skill = bad for balance.

I agree there can be exceptions to things in the game mechanics.

But...Spirits and Minions are considered summoned creatures subtypes, they have their own set of rules. Both of them behave the same way to certain skills (Like Reclaim Essence), and both types behave to conditions differently. They are AI controlled targetable NPCs that result from a skill activation (unlike a Pet, which is the result of merely carrying a skill and is considered an ally and is controllable).

The Flesh Golem is not an exception, since all the minions are different from each other. You have high damage melee (fast), ranged, vampiric, low damage melee (fast), high damage melee/corpse production (slow), melee/minion producing, and melee/condition.

Now on to the crux of the matter, being the Pet.

Quote:

There's what they could have done:
A) make it so minion spells can't exploit pet corpses.
B) make it so pets leave exploited corpses.

what's the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing difference? same result.

Well....A) would result in Wells. Since wells are not a minion spell. And putrid explosion, Necrotic teleportation....Soul feast...But you get the picture.

-=-=--------------------------============------------=

Necromancers have infinite energy thanks to controllable deaths of pets and spirits and minions....therefore Anet adjusts the pet/corpse system and spirit energy gain.

Whats interesting is the fact that pet DP isn't doing what its supposed to. The pet was still more valuable dead or dying than alive.

An Idea - Share Pet DP with the Ranger.

Why: The pet and the ranger already have existing functions where they are intrinsically linked. The ranger's skills get disabled when the pet dies, theres skills that rely on the pet for the ranger. Theres skills that transfer damage from one to the other. Skills that heal them both. The pet is your weapon, and an investment in your skill bar.

Sharing pet DP is just the next logical step. If the pet and the ranger are to be truly linked, there must be a greater penalty for letting the pet die.

If a party is abusing pets and letting them die to make corpses, they are not losing morale.
If suddenly the death of a pet is just as important as the death of a player, this changes the situation drastically.

The pet can no longer be used as a cheap battery, or corpse factory since its death is a VERY adverse affect on the ranger and in turn, the whole team build.

-=-=-=-=-=-=

But thats just an idea floating in my head.

Another idea is to change Comfort Animal, so it behaves as a res spell when the pet is dead. Ie: You must be within casting distance, long casting time, long cooldown.

gremlin · Nov 16, 2007, 01:31 AM // 01:31

Lot of good arguments both ways here and I guess none exploitable pet corpses are here to stay, at least till a future rebalance.

For the sake of my logic circuits I will assume the following.

All living things that die provide energy and corpses for Necros except pets.
The reason is there is a magical bond between the pet and its owner that in effect means the owner has rights of life and death over the pet in effect its not fully dead, thats why they can be brought back by comfort animal which doesnt bring people back.

Ok its a rough and ready reason with plenty of flaws atm but hey im trying to role play a reason why something works the way it does.

If you need a better reason the ask Melandru maybe she is pissed off at all these people abusing pets.

But at least I can now move on and stop worrying about it.

lyra_song · Nov 16, 2007, 01:41 AM // 01:41

Actually gremlin. I can give you an explanation as to WHY the change happened, in terms of gameplay functionality.

I've been waiting for someone to say it, but no one has I guess.

Heres a flawed reason (since im i a hurry), gameplay mechanicswise.

The Ranger and the Pet are to be treated as one. Hence the overall intrinsic connection of pets (ive mentioned before)

BECAUSE the pet is really just an extension of the ranger, the ranger and the pet can only be considered as ONE body. So a dead pet is not a corpse.

Why didn't anyone say this against me?

Bowstring Badass · Nov 16, 2007, 01:46 AM // 01:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by rohara

because wards weren't the problem, the necros and pets were. thumper teams pwned plenty of face without taking wards in their builds.

lolwut? there is no lod on a thumper team - the necros do the healing. and nerfing lod only made that build more powerful.

"lyra_song is using Straw Man on AoE Hexes!"

ONLY ON NECROMANCERS BECAUSE THEY HAD INFINITE ENERGY, hence the nerf.

it has been fixed. it was properly nipped in the bud.

there's exceptions to many "rules" in this game. example...minions are composed of bone and dead flesh, but they can still bleed (where's their hearts???) and are considered "fleshy". however, when they die they leave no corpse at all, so you can't raise another minion from them (with the exception of a flesh golem corpse). why? because it would be terribad for balance. taking a pet is like having your own personal flesh golem without wasting an elite skill slot. free elite skill = bad for balance.

here's what they could have done:
A) make it so minion spells can't exploit pet corpses.
B) make it so pets leave exploited corpses.

what's the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing difference? same result.

/win. I am agreeing completely here.

MithranArkanere · Nov 16, 2007, 01:48 AM // 01:48

Oh, but not all fleshy creatures can be poisoned, sickened or wounded to bleed. There are sme exceptions. Seek the wiki ==Notes==.

In terms of the game. Animals are much more like minions. They are not part of the party, but allied NPCs in their own party.

Thom Bangalter · Nov 16, 2007, 02:03 AM // 02:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Actually gremlin. I can give you an explanation as to WHY the change happened, in terms of gameplay functionality.

I've been waiting for someone to say it, but no one has I guess.

Heres a flawed reason (since im i a hurry), gameplay mechanicswise.

The Ranger and the Pet are to be treated as one. Hence the overall intrinsic connection of pets (ive mentioned before)

BECAUSE the pet is really just an extension of the ranger, the ranger and the pet can only be considered as ONE body. So a dead pet is not a corpse.

Why didn't anyone say this against me?

because it's wrong. It was nerfed because of corpse exploitation skills ruining gameplay.

Faer · Nov 16, 2007, 02:03 AM // 02:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elrien Silentfoot

I didn't see anyone claim that PvE was the reason Anet implemented this change.

lolwut? Of course it wasn't. Where did you get the idea that such a thing was being implied?